Where are the shows about regular people fighting back?

In the sardonic heist novel “The Payback,” out this month, three millennial retail workers — including a former computer hacker — are in dire straits thanks to their enormous student loans and a newly established law enforcement agency called the Debt Police, who operate like loan shark henchmen. Which is why one of them sums up their predicament: “thousands of us (are) limping to our cars and throwing up blood, all because we’d forgotten to be born rich,” she says. Her debt follows her around “like a stalker in the night.”

So they hatch a plan to take down their student loan company and wipe out their remaining balances — and those of everyone else while they’re at it. “The Payback” is funny, knowing and a shot of hope-filled adrenaline that comes at a moment when the cultural temperature is especially on edge and shaped by feelings of powerlessness over larger forces.

The Seeds of Conception

Q: What were the seeds that led you to conceive this story?

A: I paid off six figures of student loan debt myself, and I paid it off thanks to TV work. But I don’t think you should have to hit the lottery like I did in order to want to better yourself as a member of the working or middle classes.

I’m a first-generation college student, so nobody in my family really knew what college was for, how to get there or what it is you might do with such a degree. I don’t think that’s uncommon among Black American families; only two or three generations of us have been going to college.

So I did my undergrad in economics and political science at the University of Wisconsin, but I had no idea how you got a job because I didn’t know you were supposed to get jobs through your friends’ parents; my parents sent me to college so I didn’t have to work on the assembly line at General Motors like my dad, so I was completely confused.

I went to law school at Columbia University, which is something you can do without connections. And law school is expensive and I got stuck with a quarter million in student debt. We were told this is an investment in yourself and your future. I thought I was doing the things that I was supposed to do to construct a feasible American life.

It’s the same for the girls in “The Payback” — they’re doing the things American society tells them are the ways to better themselves. Are they rewarded for that? No, they’re not. They’re stalked and harassed by the Debt Police. So in the wake of being abandoned (by systems we’re told to buy into), what can people do to change their circumstances?

A Time for Resistance

Throughout American history— the civil rights movement, farm workers who organized, other civil rights movements — it’s mostly everyday people going, “I don’t want to live this life. What can I do about it? Well, I can talk to my friends and maybe we can come up with a plan together where we don’t have to be as under the thumb as we are and devoid of rights. Maybe we can fight for what the American promise is supposed to be.”

And that’s where “The Payback” came from. It’s three girls who work at the mall who go: We’re kind of all we have.

The Absence of Stories on TV and Film

Stories about regular people coming together to problem-solve, to work through conflict, to figure something out, these used to exist in various forms throughout Hollywood history. You’re a TV writer yourself, so I’m curious if you’ve pitched storylines similar to what we’re describing — and if so, what was the response?

A: My last book, “The Survivalists,” is about survivalism but also how people come together to form a community in incredibly unlikely circumstances, which I feel like is related to what you’re talking about.

The book had a lot of Hollywood interest that kind of fizzled. This is a weird time in Hollywood right now, where they’re just not buying anything. Everybody I know who is pitching shows right now is suffering. So there was a lot of interest, but I don’t know if it would have gotten to the finish line.

The Perils of Pitching

My last book, “Black Republicans,” about a Black person who’s like: I’ve been fired from my job, I’m at my wit’s end, my only plan to make money is to become a Republican for the cash. And what happened was, a lot of people we talked to tried to fit that one into what they called “middle of the country narratives.”

I’m going to note that I’m from Madison, Wisconsin, originally and the concept of “middle of the country narratives” is pretty wild.

Basically, they want whiter, more conservative ideas. But this is completely unfair considering the history, because many white folks from the “middle of the country” have gotten together in groups to campaign for better lives for themselves, including poor white people from Appalachia.

A New Era of Resistance

One exception is “Andor,” which is a great show about everyday people joining together against something much bigger than themselves — the Empire — and going: So there are little things you can do to throw a wrench into their operations. It’s not like the big plot that they carry off in “Rogue One,” where they steal plans for the Death Star, but they do the little things in “Andor.”

The show was really well-received and I think it’s because regular people were inserted into the narrative.

Understanding the Trend

Media executives are captains of industry themselves and therefore a segment of society who would be criticized in a lot of these kinds of stories. And it seems like there’s this energy that’s basically: Let’s not give audiences any big ideas about pushing back.

But studio bosses have always been captains of industry, so it feels worthwhile to try to understand what’s informing this trend right now.

A Digital World and Its Consequences

We’re also just generally not living in a great time for workers’ rights. When I see AI coming and hear people say maybe we can replace everyone from film editors to screenwriters, I don’t see an industry that is understanding about things like workers rights.

So perhaps they wouldn’t be as friendly to those stories. Especially if they’re not making many lower budget movies.

The Representation of Hackers

One of your characters is a computer hacker, and I think the common perception is that hackers have antiauthoritarian personalities.

So it’s interesting that we haven’t seen an entire generation of people who became hackers for good. Is that perception accurate to you?

A: Yes, and in the book she’s very antiauthoritarian.

I call them ethical hackers — folks who are hacking for good — I’m amazed that type of character has not been represented so much either.

The Future of “The Payback”

Do you want to see “The Payback” optioned for TV or film?

A: You bet! I have a gung-ho TV and film agent and we are in the middle of that process, so I should probably not provide specifics (laughs).